To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

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To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

jerry scharf
Hi,

A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new
building automation control system. There were some who were willing to
review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those kind people.

Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I
think of as a distributed building automation system. I would love
comments on this. This should probably happen off the list so the spam
is kept to a minimum. One of the pieces of this would be a 1-wire
gateway to the messaging system.

thanks,
jerry


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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

CReese
I think that by specifying no center you make the problem hard, and unnecessarily so. Otherwise it is infinitely easier. Why must you have no center? If necessary, you can make a couple or few gateways that sync and talk to other dumb(er) nodes.

C

> On Feb 7, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Jerry Scharf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new building automation control system. There were some who were willing to review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those kind people.
>
> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I think of as a distributed building automation system. I would love comments on this. This should probably happen off the list so the spam is kept to a minimum. One of the pieces of this would be a 1-wire gateway to the messaging system.
>
> thanks,
> jerry
>
> <NDBASProblem.pdf>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
In reply to this post by jerry scharf
Are you proposing the the air gap firewall Model (the humble thermostat model) where physical access is necessary to control the system, or the Nest model where access is from anywhere anytime?
Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 7, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Jerry Scharf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new building automation control system. There were some who were willing to review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those kind people.
>
> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I think of as a distributed building automation system. I would love comments on this. This should probably happen off the list so the spam is kept to a minimum. One of the pieces of this would be a 1-wire gateway to the messaging system.
>
> thanks,
> jerry
>
> <NDBASProblem.pdf>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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> Owfs-developers mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers

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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

jerry scharf
Hi,

What I am describing is a platform to build building automation systems
from. How a given implementation is done is up to the developers and the
implementers. Right now, what is most important is to get the
fundamental architecture right so different people can build different
things in different languages and allow them to interoperate. If that
works well, we could hope for a community of people building pieces that
could be fit together, but that's just a hope right now.

I am building a system for myself out of this, and mine will definitely
be closer to the nest model than the thermostat model.

jerry

On 02/22/2016 07:22 AM, Arlen Carter wrote:

> Are you proposing the the air gap firewall Model (the humble thermostat model) where physical access is necessary to control the system, or the Nest model where access is from anywhere anytime?
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 7, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Jerry Scharf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new building automation control system. There were some who were willing to review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those kind people.
>>
>> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I think of as a distributed building automation system. I would love comments on this. This should probably happen off the list so the spam is kept to a minimum. One of the pieces of this would be a 1-wire gateway to the messaging system.
>>
>> thanks,
>> jerry
>>
>> <NDBASProblem.pdf>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
What you are proposing  appears to be a large development project with
lots of risks that aren't addressed in the doc you have published thus far.
Some ideas to consider:
1. Scope of project release 0.10, deliverables and time line for
reference release  0.1
2.  Funding necessary for 1 above
3.  IETF standards or proposed standards that could be used as a
starting point, or something to build on.
4.  SWOT.  You may have noticed that if you are aiming toward the nest
model, they and other players in this space are uhhhh....well funded.
Arley


On 22/02/16 10:39, Jerry Scharf wrote:

> Hi,
>
> What I am describing is a platform to build building automation systems
> from. How a given implementation is done is up to the developers and the
> implementers. Right now, what is most important is to get the
> fundamental architecture right so different people can build different
> things in different languages and allow them to interoperate. If that
> works well, we could hope for a community of people building pieces that
> could be fit together, but that's just a hope right now.
>
> I am building a system for myself out of this, and mine will definitely
> be closer to the nest model than the thermostat model.
>
> jerry
>
> On 02/22/2016 07:22 AM, Arlen Carter wrote:
>> Are you proposing the the air gap firewall Model (the humble thermostat model) where physical access is necessary to control the system, or the Nest model where access is from anywhere anytime?
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Feb 7, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Jerry Scharf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new building automation control system. There were some who were willing to review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those kind people.
>>>
>>> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I think of as a distributed building automation system. I would love comments on this. This should probably happen off the list so the spam is kept to a minimum. One of the pieces of this would be a 1-wire gateway to the messaging system.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> jerry
>>>
>>> <NDBASProblem.pdf>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Jan Kandziora
In reply to this post by jerry scharf
Am 07.02.2016 um 21:39 schrieb Jerry Scharf:
>
> A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new
> building automation control system. There were some who were willing to
> review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those kind people.
>
I think, to make another building automation system to make any impact,
it doesn't have to be cleverly designed but cheap to build components
for. First all do-it-yourself, then being adopted by maker-suppliers.


Another thing to consider is about the possible targets. In a home or
small shop, you simply don't need to have any lightswitch and lightbulb
being freely programmable. Noone is going to replace a $20 remote
controlled wallsocket by a $100+work do-it-yourself device just for the
sake to be able to turn lights on and off through the internet.

There is a reason why these isolated applications exist, and it's the
price and replacing them isn't scratching an itch. *They aren't so bad.*


So, with the IoT lightbulbs being mostly a toy, what keeps being on the
stage? Only heating & cooling, I think.


For heating control, you really can stay clear from all europeans.

Because even those of us who live in a house have a very simple heating
arrangement. A boiler, outer temperature sensor for controlling the
overall heat produced by the boiler and radiator controls which allow
closed-loop control of the heat distributed into individual rooms. There
are even programmable versions of these radiator controls available for
less than €15.

http://www.amazon.de/AGT-Programmierbarer-Heizk%C3%B6rper-Thermostat-Energiesparregler-4er-Set/dp/B00A6IS8T6

The nice thing about these is you can even use them in your rented flat.


For those having a more complicated heat distribution system, like a
solar panel or heat recuperation devices, the supplier installs a
matching control system and you'd better not tinker with that.


A/C is virtually unknown in western europe outside of office buildings.
Simply not needed.

In Germany, we often have automated window blinds instead, mostly
against rainstorms, but also against excessive sun, and against
burglars. But then again, when you order these window blinds and like to
have them automated, the supplier will happily sell you another isolated
solution which fits your needs.



So far, any catch-all solution first has to prove it does something
unique better, other than being a catch-all solution.


Kind regards

        Jan

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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Nathan Hurst-4
In reply to this post by jerry scharf
Looks interesting, some comments for you:

How do you propose to solve
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault_tolerance
which you invoke with your "The system and all its components must
embrace the possibility of failure and design for partial
operational states."  combined with your fully distributed design.

How much benefit is there in smart controllers?  Can you measure the
'regret' between a simple thermostat and a smart controller?  How much
is this worth in $?  I presume that the main reason for Nest is for
data collection and techporn, rather than any real benefit from a
smarter controller.  Perhaps there is some value in load shedding?
But that's going to require real contracts with real utilities,
something beyond an open source project.

Is a wired protocol the best choice for adoption?  have you considered
throwie like esp8266 + ds1822?  How are you going to keep data
persisted if all the nodes are unreliable?  Of course wired is
generally much more reliable, but most people are not willing to wire
stuff up.

I built my father a smart home 20 years ago using technology of the
time.  Something things I learnt:
* Automatic light switching is not really very interesting, and hard
  to do well.
* Traditional mechnical thermostats are more reliable than PCs.
* When you have house-sitters your smart systems will break (also when
  you go away for a conference).
* Wires + outside = corrosion.  Even when you put inside a UL whatever
  rated enclosure, with silicone grease and silca desicant.
* Everything will stop working in a way you didn't predict.
* Electromechanical relays are about the only thing safe to use to
  communicate with other systems.  Don't use opticalelectronic (SSR) ones.
* Humidity sensors drift a lot over a decade.
* Bird shit is corrosive.
* PVC is porous to water.
* UPSs break more often than the grid.
* There are no battery technologies I can afford that last a decade.
* The best user interface is no user interface.
* PCs of that era were surprisingly robust (the original machine only
  died last year, when its 400MB drive died).  On the other hand, it
  did cost more than 100W continuous power.  It has been replaced with
  two beaglebone blacks, one of which only survived 3 months.
* sending power and signal in the same cable is not really worth it.
  Transformers are robust and reliable.
* use AC wherever possible to reduce corrosion.
* irrigation pipe is much cheaper than electrical signalling.  And
  more robust too.
* Don't put anything in the walls, even if it saves you lots in cabling.

Having said all of that.  He still has it, he still likes that the
chicken house door reports its state over the web and that he has a
graph of indoor and outdoor temps, solar electricity production etc.
But he's also a retired EE/Computer Science Professor with skill and
time on his hands.

My recommendation is to find a specific problem that you can show you
can have a direct effect on with automation, and solve that simply and
cleanly.  Then find another one.  And perhaps combine them.  I want
you to succeed (we all do or we wouldn't be on this list), I share
your dream, but this proposal is too big to survive without such
motivating examples.

Alternatively, implement a light weight distributed consensus protocol
in say Rust to run on embedded systems (e.g. esp8266) and become
famous for that.  I'd buy that.

Good luck,
njh

On Sun, Feb 07, 2016 at 12:39:49PM -0800, Jerry Scharf wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A while ago I had asked if anyone was interested in working on a new
> building automation control system. There were some who were willing
> to review and comment on it. I am going to avail myself of those
> kind people.
>
> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to
> what I think of as a distributed building automation system. I would
> love comments on this. This should probably happen off the list so
> the spam is kept to a minimum. One of the pieces of this would be a
> 1-wire gateway to the messaging system.
>
> thanks,
> jerry
>


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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers


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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Matthias Urlichs-3
In reply to this post by jerry scharf
On 07.02.2016 21:39, Jerry Scharf wrote:
> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I
> think of as a distributed building automation system.

I'm also thinking about (and designing+coding in) this problem space,
albeit with a few key differences.

* I disagree that state should only be inherent in messaging. That means
you have nothing to return to after a crash, reboot, or power failure.
"I have no ide whether the alarm system is armed" is not a reasonable
system state.

* I also disagree that there should be no configuration. Configuration
is necessary. _Something_ shall tell the system what the code for
disarming the alarm is. Or simply which switch(es) control which light(s).

* However, I agree that any one central essential system must be allowed
to fail, if only to continue operation when updating the thing. The
corollary is that processing may indeed happen anywhere, and should be
able to take over quickly when warranted.

Talk is cheap. So are concept papers; I have to admit I'm one of the
persons who have discovered that the hard way. You need a minimal
working system to have a reasonable discussion. Haystack has clients and
servers in multiple languages, including some (albeit at first glance
rather rather incomplete) unit tests, but are these actually *used* by
somebody for anything?

WRT "nest" vs. "thermostat" model: The Nest model is not about
controlling your home. It is about keeping data about your home in the
cloud so that whoever offers the service (Google now owns Nest …) can do
some deep data mining on it. It is also about the complete impossibility
of doing anything whatsoever in your own home as soon as the Internet
connection fails, and of having bricks instead of thermostats if the
company providing their cloud service ever goes belly-up. Or just
decides to no longer support them.

The "thermostat" model is too limited. Heating is in fact a good
example: If I know the actual valve settings at all my thermostats, I
can raise or lower the central heating's temperature appropriately. This
can save a lot of energy, but might be unstable unless there is two-way
communication between these devices.

NB: Project Haystack: the first thing I would do with that body of text
(and code) is to rip out their unit system -- including every single
mention of square feet, °F, or time zones. The code to convert between
units MUST be a function of the user interface, not of every single
agent in the system. That way lies madness.

NB²: "users work with a meta-model" does not make sense. The meta-model
is, per definition, the design of the language which the model is
described in. This is fixed by the system components' design and
implementation. Do you mean that users describe their system at a higher
level of abstraction, i.e. in some kind of macro language? What happens
when the user doesn't provide enough information for the agents to infer
their devices' configuration?

-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?  They are rather
far down the track in the direction you are headed.
It is a quasi-open source project (membership in the club required ).  I
believe it was initially funded by Siemens, AB, Honeywell and others.  
In other words heavy hitters.  I believe the initial goal of the project
was to replace legacy scada systems, but has traveled far beyond that.  
After all home/industrial automation is home/industrial automation.
The concepts and problems are the same.  Why replow fields and reinvent
wheels?
Arley

On 22/02/16 17:30, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

> On 07.02.2016 21:39, Jerry Scharf wrote:
>> Here is a problem statement that I wrote up about how to move to what I
>> think of as a distributed building automation system.
> I'm also thinking about (and designing+coding in) this problem space,
> albeit with a few key differences.
>
> * I disagree that state should only be inherent in messaging. That means
> you have nothing to return to after a crash, reboot, or power failure.
> "I have no ide whether the alarm system is armed" is not a reasonable
> system state.
>
> * I also disagree that there should be no configuration. Configuration
> is necessary. _Something_ shall tell the system what the code for
> disarming the alarm is. Or simply which switch(es) control which light(s).
>
> * However, I agree that any one central essential system must be allowed
> to fail, if only to continue operation when updating the thing. The
> corollary is that processing may indeed happen anywhere, and should be
> able to take over quickly when warranted.
>
> Talk is cheap. So are concept papers; I have to admit I'm one of the
> persons who have discovered that the hard way. You need a minimal
> working system to have a reasonable discussion. Haystack has clients and
> servers in multiple languages, including some (albeit at first glance
> rather rather incomplete) unit tests, but are these actually *used* by
> somebody for anything?
>
> WRT "nest" vs. "thermostat" model: The Nest model is not about
> controlling your home. It is about keeping data about your home in the
> cloud so that whoever offers the service (Google now owns Nest …) can do
> some deep data mining on it. It is also about the complete impossibility
> of doing anything whatsoever in your own home as soon as the Internet
> connection fails, and of having bricks instead of thermostats if the
> company providing their cloud service ever goes belly-up. Or just
> decides to no longer support them.
>
> The "thermostat" model is too limited. Heating is in fact a good
> example: If I know the actual valve settings at all my thermostats, I
> can raise or lower the central heating's temperature appropriately. This
> can save a lot of energy, but might be unstable unless there is two-way
> communication between these devices.
>
> NB: Project Haystack: the first thing I would do with that body of text
> (and code) is to rip out their unit system -- including every single
> mention of square feet, °F, or time zones. The code to convert between
> units MUST be a function of the user interface, not of every single
> agent in the system. That way lies madness.
>
> NB²: "users work with a meta-model" does not make sense. The meta-model
> is, per definition, the design of the language which the model is
> described in. This is fixed by the system components' design and
> implementation. Do you mean that users describe their system at a higher
> level of abstraction, i.e. in some kind of macro language? What happens
> when the user doesn't provide enough information for the agents to infer
> their devices' configuration?
>
> -- Matthias Urlichs
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>


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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Matthias Urlichs-3
Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:

> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?

Not yet.

[three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.

If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.

This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.

In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.

> They are rather
> far down the track in the direction you are headed.

They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
scratch.

> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?

Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).

In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
wheels gets loose.

> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]

Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Gregg Levine
Hello!
You mean the imbecilic thing that Source Forge puts on the bottom of
all of these messages? I'm afraid we are stuck with it unless we want
to move to a different service provider, who can also provide project
hosting.

Now here's where getting Paul's input would be worth a certain form of crystals.
-----
Gregg C Levine [hidden email]
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Matthias Urlichs <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>
> Not yet.
>
> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>
> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>
> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>
> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>
>> They are rather
>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>
> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
> scratch.
>
>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>
> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>
> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
> wheels gets loose.
>
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>

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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

CReese
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
For what it's worth, I have my own Python sql query abstraction that I find infinitely useful.

I create/edit all action (if this then that) operations from a web interface where I reference values using a database value notation that is then interpreted by a sanitized Python eval. Pretty simple but powerful. Can send rf messages, set db values for squirting into switch io, etc.

Sure, single point of failure, but stateful and historical (critical for PID), which the importance of was already pointed out. I think it's important to have stupid devices and one or a few smart nodes for databasing and bringing things to a web interface. Computers are quite reliable these days. If you want the thing to be networked, you'll need a single node to either get things out or determine which of your redundant smart nodes have failed anyway. I guess you could make this node a simple micro for no other purpose (or a hacked router), but I find SBCs such as the Pi plenty reliable.

C

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>
> Not yet.
>
> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>
> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>
> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>
> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>
>> They are rather
>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>
> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
> scratch.
>
>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>
> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>
> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
> wheels gets loose.
>
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>
> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
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> Owfs-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers

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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
Don't hold back!  Tell us what u really think of OPC.  LOL!!!
Fwiw:  $3k to license a useful code base  is not outrageous, if there is some useful stuff there.
Hmmmmm..... How much Design/Developer/Coding time will $3k buy me?
Perhaps u work at Elbonian wage rates!  😀

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 23, 2016, at 2:16 PM, Matthias Urlichs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>
> Not yet.
>
> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>
> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>
> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>
> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>
>> They are rather
>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>
> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
> scratch.
>
>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>
> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>
> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
> wheels gets loose.
>
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>
> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
> _______________________________________________
> Owfs-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers

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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

jerry scharf
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
I'll make one public comment on this.

OpenHAB is the exact opposite of what I am thinking of. I would describe
OpenHAB as "You will write in Java, you will use our class structure,
you will limit yourself to the interactions that we think are important
and you will like it. We do." You can certainly build something this way
and get to the feature adding stage sooner, but you also create all
sorts of walls to run into. I have too many dents on my head from trying
to get these kinds of systems to dance anything other than the tune they
came with.

My house is way to complex for this kind of model, at both the
abstraction and interaction level. My house is designed to allow a
control system to run the system in as close to steady state as
possible, with variable  source and distribution units. So "turn it on"
is a less common action than increase this flow or output to 42%.

I also have independent heating and cooling systems with independent and
overlapping zoning. Then again, zone is something a system implementer
thinks about, occupants really don't know or want to know about these
things. I'm here and I'm too hot is their level.

Now imagine trying to predict the solar heating rate from weather
reports/measurements and preheat/precool areas to at least reduce
massive errors. With radiant heat, these decisions are made in time
scale of fractions of an hour in advance.

The interactions need to be defined by the components in the particular
system and the service agreements between messaging agents that present
those components. My goal is to be able to have agents that implement
control algorithms / architectures and allow those to interact with real
world systems.

jerry

On 02/23/2016 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
> Not yet.
>
> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>
> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>
> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>
> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>
>> They are rather
>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
> scratch.
>
>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>
> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
> wheels gets loose.
>
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
> _______________________________________________
> Owfs-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers


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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
Jerry:
Forgive me if you consider these stupid questions. Why is your house so
complex?
How does this development project add value to your house?

The humble thermostat does the job for me.  It is cheap and has never
failed me and has never
needed a sys admin or a highly skilled system architect to solve a fault
tolerance or deadlock/ fail open/fail close problem.
It can used properly and understood by a 6 year old.
If I need more zones, I call the hvac guy and he installs more zones
with more humble thermostats  that are cheap and controlled by simple
electrical mechanical DC devices that don't need a college degree to
understand and have a failure rate of .001 %
If my other family members are realllllly unhappy, I can install some
through the wall systems made by Hitachi and others that will provide
precise control in each room ( or portions thereof) and can be operated
by a 6 year old.

So.... Why is your house so complex?  Please explain in a few words what
the value is for this development project over what we already have?
Arley

On 23/02/16 22:05, Jerry Scharf wrote:

> I'll make one public comment on this.
>
> OpenHAB is the exact opposite of what I am thinking of. I would describe
> OpenHAB as "You will write in Java, you will use our class structure,
> you will limit yourself to the interactions that we think are important
> and you will like it. We do." You can certainly build something this way
> and get to the feature adding stage sooner, but you also create all
> sorts of walls to run into. I have too many dents on my head from trying
> to get these kinds of systems to dance anything other than the tune they
> came with.
>
> My house is way to complex for this kind of model, at both the
> abstraction and interaction level. My house is designed to allow a
> control system to run the system in as close to steady state as
> possible, with variable  source and distribution units. So "turn it on"
> is a less common action than increase this flow or output to 42%.
>
> I also have independent heating and cooling systems with independent and
> overlapping zoning. Then again, zone is something a system implementer
> thinks about, occupants really don't know or want to know about these
> things. I'm here and I'm too hot is their level.
>
> Now imagine trying to predict the solar heating rate from weather
> reports/measurements and preheat/precool areas to at least reduce
> massive errors. With radiant heat, these decisions are made in time
> scale of fractions of an hour in advance.
>
> The interactions need to be defined by the components in the particular
> system and the service agreements between messaging agents that present
> those components. My goal is to be able to have agents that implement
> control algorithms / architectures and allow those to interact with real
> world systems.
>
> jerry
>
> On 02/23/2016 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>> Not yet.
>>
>> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>>
>> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
>> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
>> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
>> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
>> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
>> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
>> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>>
>> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>>
>> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
>> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>>
>>> They are rather
>>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
>> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
>> scratch.
>>
>>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
>> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
>> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
>> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>>
>> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
>> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
>> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
>> wheels gets loose.
>>
>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
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> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers


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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
In reply to this post by jerry scharf
Jerry:
Forgive me if you consider these stupid questions. Why is your house so
complex?
How does this development project add value to your house?

The humble thermostat does the job for me.  It is cheap and has never
failed me and has never
needed a sys admin or a highly skilled system architect to solve a fault
tolerance or deadlock/ fail open/fail close problem.
It can used properly and understood by a 6 year old.
If I need more zones, I call the hvac guy and he installs more zones
with more humble thermostats  that are cheap and controlled by simple
electrical mechanical DC devices that don't need a college degree to
understand and have a failure rate of .001 %
If my other family members are realllllly unhappy, I can install some
through the wall systems made by Hitachi and others that will provide
precise control in each room ( or portions thereof) and can be operated
by a 6 year old.

So.... Why is your house so complex?  Please explain in a few words what
the value is for this development project over what we already have?
Arley

On 23/02/16 22:05, Jerry Scharf wrote:

> I'll make one public comment on this.
>
> OpenHAB is the exact opposite of what I am thinking of. I would describe
> OpenHAB as "You will write in Java, you will use our class structure,
> you will limit yourself to the interactions that we think are important
> and you will like it. We do." You can certainly build something this way
> and get to the feature adding stage sooner, but you also create all
> sorts of walls to run into. I have too many dents on my head from trying
> to get these kinds of systems to dance anything other than the tune they
> came with.
>
> My house is way to complex for this kind of model, at both the
> abstraction and interaction level. My house is designed to allow a
> control system to run the system in as close to steady state as
> possible, with variable  source and distribution units. So "turn it on"
> is a less common action than increase this flow or output to 42%.
>
> I also have independent heating and cooling systems with independent and
> overlapping zoning. Then again, zone is something a system implementer
> thinks about, occupants really don't know or want to know about these
> things. I'm here and I'm too hot is their level.
>
> Now imagine trying to predict the solar heating rate from weather
> reports/measurements and preheat/precool areas to at least reduce
> massive errors. With radiant heat, these decisions are made in time
> scale of fractions of an hour in advance.
>
> The interactions need to be defined by the components in the particular
> system and the service agreements between messaging agents that present
> those components. My goal is to be able to have agents that implement
> control algorithms / architectures and allow those to interact with real
> world systems.
>
> jerry
>
> On 02/23/2016 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>> Not yet.
>>
>> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>>
>> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
>> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
>> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
>> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
>> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
>> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
>> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>>
>> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>>
>> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
>> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>>
>>> They are rather
>>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
>> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
>> scratch.
>>
>>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
>> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
>> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
>> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>>
>> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
>> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
>> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
>> wheels gets loose.
>>
>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
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>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>
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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Arley Carter
On 24 February 2016 at 14:57, Arley Carter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jerry:
> Forgive me if you consider these stupid questions. Why is your house so
> complex?
> How does this development project add value to your house?
>
> The humble thermostat does the job for me.  It is cheap and has never
> failed me and has never
> needed a sys admin or a highly skilled system architect to solve a fault
> tolerance or deadlock/ fail open/fail close problem.
> It can used properly and understood by a 6 year old.
> If I need more zones, I call the hvac guy and he installs more zones
> with more humble thermostats  that are cheap and controlled by simple
> electrical mechanical DC devices that don't need a college degree to
> understand and have a failure rate of .001 %
> If my other family members are realllllly unhappy, I can install some
> through the wall systems made by Hitachi and others that will provide
> precise control in each room ( or portions thereof) and can be operated
> by a 6 year old.
>
> So.... Why is your house so complex?  Please explain in a few words what
> the value is for this development project over what we already have?

I can't see how your solution is in any way intellectually
stimulating, satisfying or, most important of all, fun.  Not much of a
solution if it fails on three of the key requirements.

Colin

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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

jerry scharf
In reply to this post by Arley Carter
Arley,

This is approaching flame bait, but I will answer it since it was sent
to the list. I will handle all other comments off this list. I really
didn't want to coopt the list to discussing this.

If you don't care about maximizing comfort or efficiency, the humble
thermostat is fine. If you have one forced air furnace with or without a
single A/C unit, it will do what it can to keep the house heated and
cooled. If you want to deal with real world issues that make this kind
of system less than ideal, you suddenly need something far smarter and
more coordinated.

As for the thermostat being the ideal UI, please explain why I always
walked into rooms (houses, hotel rooms, ...) that were either boiling or
freezing. The reason was that someone came in, was really uncomfortable
and so they turned the thermostat way up or way down. The thinking that
it will make them comfortable more quickly, which is about 90% false. Of
course they forget they did this and a while later people are cooked or
frozen.

A more comfortable approach is to have a new final target, overshoot the
target by a moderate amount (I use 30% as an empirical rule of thumb) of
the differential  to reach the 63% thermal mass temperature (depends on
heat flow and thermal mass) to heat/cool the room mass more quickly,
then return to the target.

I spent quite a bit of time and money trying to make my house very
comfortable and efficient. The control system is a key part of making it
work. The fact that you don't care about (or seem to even notice) the
less than ideal actions of thermostats doesn't make it something others
should not pursue.

People who walk into my house instantly feel the difference from how a
normal house feels. That's not an accident and it's not trivial to do.

jerry

On 02/24/2016 07:02 AM, Arley Carter wrote:

> Jerry:
> Forgive me if you consider these stupid questions. Why is your house so
> complex?
> How does this development project add value to your house?
>
> The humble thermostat does the job for me.  It is cheap and has never
> failed me and has never
> needed a sys admin or a highly skilled system architect to solve a fault
> tolerance or deadlock/ fail open/fail close problem.
> It can used properly and understood by a 6 year old.
> If I need more zones, I call the hvac guy and he installs more zones
> with more humble thermostats  that are cheap and controlled by simple
> electrical mechanical DC devices that don't need a college degree to
> understand and have a failure rate of .001 %
> If my other family members are realllllly unhappy, I can install some
> through the wall systems made by Hitachi and others that will provide
> precise control in each room ( or portions thereof) and can be operated
> by a 6 year old.
>
> So.... Why is your house so complex?  Please explain in a few words what
> the value is for this development project over what we already have?
> Arley
>
> On 23/02/16 22:05, Jerry Scharf wrote:
>> I'll make one public comment on this.
>>
>> OpenHAB is the exact opposite of what I am thinking of. I would describe
>> OpenHAB as "You will write in Java, you will use our class structure,
>> you will limit yourself to the interactions that we think are important
>> and you will like it. We do." You can certainly build something this way
>> and get to the feature adding stage sooner, but you also create all
>> sorts of walls to run into. I have too many dents on my head from trying
>> to get these kinds of systems to dance anything other than the tune they
>> came with.
>>
>> My house is way to complex for this kind of model, at both the
>> abstraction and interaction level. My house is designed to allow a
>> control system to run the system in as close to steady state as
>> possible, with variable  source and distribution units. So "turn it on"
>> is a less common action than increase this flow or output to 42%.
>>
>> I also have independent heating and cooling systems with independent and
>> overlapping zoning. Then again, zone is something a system implementer
>> thinks about, occupants really don't know or want to know about these
>> things. I'm here and I'm too hot is their level.
>>
>> Now imagine trying to predict the solar heating rate from weather
>> reports/measurements and preheat/precool areas to at least reduce
>> massive errors. With radiant heat, these decisions are made in time
>> scale of fractions of an hour in advance.
>>
>> The interactions need to be defined by the components in the particular
>> system and the service agreements between messaging agents that present
>> those components. My goal is to be able to have agents that implement
>> control algorithms / architectures and allow those to interact with real
>> world systems.
>>
>> jerry
>>
>> On 02/23/2016 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>>> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>>> Not yet.
>>>
>>> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>>>
>>> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
>>> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
>>> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
>>> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
>>> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
>>> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
>>> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>>>
>>> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>>>
>>> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
>>> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>>>
>>>> They are rather
>>>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>>> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
>>> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
>>> scratch.
>>>
>>>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>>> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
>>> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
>>> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
>>> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>>>
>>> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
>>> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
>>> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
>>> wheels gets loose.
>>>
>>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>>> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owfs-developers mailing list
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>
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> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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Re: To the people willing to look at what I am thinking about for control systems

Arley Carter
Jerry:
"Because I want to " is an ok answer.
I was just wondering if u were using your house as a prototype or proof of concept somewhere in the real world.

What the heck. I have a 1200 sq ft aquaponic greenhouse that is fully automated with electro mechanical relays, solenoids, liquid level sensors, pumps, fans, pneumatic cylinders that open and shut vents, misters, thermostats, humidity sensors, temperature sensors, all monitored and controlled by a raspberry pi that communicates  with the one wire protocol.

My wife thinks I'm crazy.
My wife would tell the other occupants of your house
"I feel your pain!"
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Jerry Scharf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Arley,
>
> This is approaching flame bait, but I will answer it since it was sent
> to the list. I will handle all other comments off this list. I really
> didn't want to coopt the list to discussing this.
>
> If you don't care about maximizing comfort or efficiency, the humble
> thermostat is fine. If you have one forced air furnace with or without a
> single A/C unit, it will do what it can to keep the house heated and
> cooled. If you want to deal with real world issues that make this kind
> of system less than ideal, you suddenly need something far smarter and
> more coordinated.
>
> As for the thermostat being the ideal UI, please explain why I always
> walked into rooms (houses, hotel rooms, ...) that were either boiling or
> freezing. The reason was that someone came in, was really uncomfortable
> and so they turned the thermostat way up or way down. The thinking that
> it will make them comfortable more quickly, which is about 90% false. Of
> course they forget they did this and a while later people are cooked or
> frozen.
>
> A more comfortable approach is to have a new final target, overshoot the
> target by a moderate amount (I use 30% as an empirical rule of thumb) of
> the differential  to reach the 63% thermal mass temperature (depends on
> heat flow and thermal mass) to heat/cool the room mass more quickly,
> then return to the target.
>
> I spent quite a bit of time and money trying to make my house very
> comfortable and efficient. The control system is a key part of making it
> work. The fact that you don't care about (or seem to even notice) the
> less than ideal actions of thermostats doesn't make it something others
> should not pursue.
>
> People who walk into my house instantly feel the difference from how a
> normal house feels. That's not an accident and it's not trivial to do.
>
> jerry
>
>> On 02/24/2016 07:02 AM, Arley Carter wrote:
>> Jerry:
>> Forgive me if you consider these stupid questions. Why is your house so
>> complex?
>> How does this development project add value to your house?
>>
>> The humble thermostat does the job for me.  It is cheap and has never
>> failed me and has never
>> needed a sys admin or a highly skilled system architect to solve a fault
>> tolerance or deadlock/ fail open/fail close problem.
>> It can used properly and understood by a 6 year old.
>> If I need more zones, I call the hvac guy and he installs more zones
>> with more humble thermostats  that are cheap and controlled by simple
>> electrical mechanical DC devices that don't need a college degree to
>> understand and have a failure rate of .001 %
>> If my other family members are realllllly unhappy, I can install some
>> through the wall systems made by Hitachi and others that will provide
>> precise control in each room ( or portions thereof) and can be operated
>> by a 6 year old.
>>
>> So.... Why is your house so complex?  Please explain in a few words what
>> the value is for this development project over what we already have?
>> Arley
>>
>>> On 23/02/16 22:05, Jerry Scharf wrote:
>>> I'll make one public comment on this.
>>>
>>> OpenHAB is the exact opposite of what I am thinking of. I would describe
>>> OpenHAB as "You will write in Java, you will use our class structure,
>>> you will limit yourself to the interactions that we think are important
>>> and you will like it. We do." You can certainly build something this way
>>> and get to the feature adding stage sooner, but you also create all
>>> sorts of walls to run into. I have too many dents on my head from trying
>>> to get these kinds of systems to dance anything other than the tune they
>>> came with.
>>>
>>> My house is way to complex for this kind of model, at both the
>>> abstraction and interaction level. My house is designed to allow a
>>> control system to run the system in as close to steady state as
>>> possible, with variable  source and distribution units. So "turn it on"
>>> is a less common action than increase this flow or output to 42%.
>>>
>>> I also have independent heating and cooling systems with independent and
>>> overlapping zoning. Then again, zone is something a system implementer
>>> thinks about, occupants really don't know or want to know about these
>>> things. I'm here and I'm too hot is their level.
>>>
>>> Now imagine trying to predict the solar heating rate from weather
>>> reports/measurements and preheat/precool areas to at least reduce
>>> massive errors. With radiant heat, these decisions are made in time
>>> scale of fractions of an hour in advance.
>>>
>>> The interactions need to be defined by the components in the particular
>>> system and the service agreements between messaging agents that present
>>> those components. My goal is to be able to have agents that implement
>>> control algorithms / architectures and allow those to interact with real
>>> world systems.
>>>
>>> jerry
>>>
>>>> On 02/23/2016 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>>>> Arley Carter <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>>>> Not yet.
>>>>
>>>> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me ranting.
>>>>
>>>> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to implement a
>>>> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor do I
>>>> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to the
>>>> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
>>>> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
>>>> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
>>>> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>>>>
>>>> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their right
>>>> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>>>>
>>>>> They are rather
>>>>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>>>> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is not
>>>> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done from
>>>> scratch.
>>>>
>>>>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>>>> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build [the
>>>> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
>>>> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three lines of
>>>> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>>>>
>>>> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I can
>>>> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is easier to
>>>> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of the
>>>> wheels gets loose.
>>>>
>>>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: [yeah, right]
>>>> Adding commercials to emails is not a particularly good idea IMHO.
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>>>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>>>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
>>> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
>>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Owfs-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/owfs-developers
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
>> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
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>> [hidden email]
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>
>
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